27 uncapped players in England U20s squad of 32, new coach added

Mate when you have all aussie coaches your worse! Your parochial views have no logic and even less intelligence.

If you don't have anything positive to say, then say nothing, oh wait, that means you'll never comment again, win win.

"Do you think Ntamack now is a better player than he was at 21?"

That's hard to say, but he certainly hasn't got much better. At 20 he was the top scorer in the six nations, and hasn't been since. At 20 he scored 3 tries in the six nations, and hasn't scored that many since. At 20 he was nominated for 6 nations player of the tournament, and hasn't been since. At 22 he was selected at 10 in the offical 6 nations team of the tournament, and hasn't been since. About a year or two ago a load of people started saying he was the best 10 in the world, which they hadn't previously, but my perception was that this was less because he had gotten better, and more that in 2020 his world class performances could be written off as flukes whereas by 2023 they were clearly representative of his genuine talent.

"Isn't that what your asking for from Marcus?"

Is what what I'm asking for from Marcus?

This thread began with me trying to explain that there is no reason to think that Marcus Smith will improve going forwards. Do you agree or disagree with that point?

"that the team wants/needs an older version of Dan Carter? Or are you just basing this of win ratio."

What? I literally argued that Dan Carter was at least as good when he was young as he was when he was older. And no, I'm not basing this off win ratio; I just think that England's low win ratio is partly a result of Marcus Smith being much worse than people realise.

"Of course some don't continue to develop past the age of 20. You're not really making any sort of argument unless you have new data. 26/27 is undoubtedly the peak of most positions/peole."

That is literally the argument I am making though. The fact that you agree with me doesn't invalidate my point. People in this thread were arguing that Marcus Smith would continue to improve going forwards; I argued that he might not, and that even if he does he is already not far from his peak. He will literally be 26 next month, so if you are right that 26/27 is undoubtedly the peak of most "peole", he's only got 5 more weeks of development in him!

"Hahaha, define "good"? I'd suggest to you theyre a "good" side now"

I think finishing 3rd at the world cup is good. I think beating Ireland is good. I think losing 5 consecutive matches isn't good. I define good in terms of winning games, and I think that the world rankings are a pretty good metric for quantifying whether consequential games have been won in a team's recent history. How are you defining "good"?

"Surely Ford or Farrell must have had a period of great success somewhere? What about 2015?"

I honestly don't know what you're talking about, or how it bears any relation to this conversation. Farrell probably peaked sometime around 2016 or 2017, Ford probably peaked a couple of years later, but Ford is still a better player now than Marcus Smith is.

"But my point was more the game in England. Having only recently adapted a more open game, the pioneers of that are going to find others take a while to catch up (your point about the rest of the team)."

England adapted pretty quickly to an open game in the six nations last year, and have got worse since then. If England play in the attacking style of play that is common in the premiership the players will pick it up quickly, as they are well used to it.

"So you want the rest of the team trying to halt this momentum and go back to a forward based game ala the success of the last two WCs?"

Seriously, what are you talking about? I don't want "the rest of the team trying to half this momentum", I want the rest of the team to be allowed to play the attacking rugby that comes naturally to them. You seem to have decided that because Marcus Smith has pioneered a style of rugby that works for a mid-table premiership side, the entire England national team should be forced to play it, even if it takes them years to learn it, and lose almost all their matches in the process?