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Are Ireland and Leinster the biggest chokers in world rugby?

PARIS, FRANCE - SEPTEMBER 23: Jasper Wiese of South Africa confronts Andrew Porter of Ireland during the Rugby World Cup France 2023 match between South Africa and Ireland at Stade de France on September 23, 2023 in Paris, France. (Photo by Laurence Griffiths/Getty Images)

Drawing parallels between another trophy-less season for Leinster and Ireland bombing out of the quarter-finals of last year’s Rugby World Cup, Springbok legends Jean de Villiers and Schalk Burger believe that mental frailty is the root cause for the failure.

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Nearly half of Ireland’s Rugby World Cup squad (16 out of 33) featured in both of Leinster big game losses this season: the 22-31 Champions Cup final defeat to Toulouse and the equally demoralising URC semi-final exit to the Bulls in Pretoria.

Leinster – or Ireland in blue, as they have been called in the past, given the majority of their players are internationals – have now gone three years without any silverware.

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    And the two Rugby World Cup 2007 winners, de Villiers and Burger, say that it’s not down to a lack of talent but rather what is going on in the top two inches that is seeing both the provincial team and the national team fall short of meeting expectations.

    In the latest episode of RPTV’s Boks Office, back-rower Burger likened the situation to the one Northern Ireland golfer Rory McIlroy is going through in his elusive search for a fifth Major title.

    “You saw it with Rory McIlroy on the weekend, at the US Open,” he points out. “It’s not the technical fault he has got, it’s a mental hurdle he has got to get over. He missed two short puts in the last three holes and made three bogeys out of the last five and (Bryson) DeChambeau wins it, That hurts, that stings.

    “There’s a trend in all these big games (with Leinster and Ireland),” he continues. “the pack of forwards crumbles and then it becomes hard to play their style, the breakdown becomes a bit more of a contest, and they don’t have that speed of play that they sort of get through their nine (Jamison) Gibson-Park and (Ross) Byrne at 10.”

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    De Villiers points out that while 80% of the players are shared, the coaches are different, with Andy Farrell in charge of Ireland and Leo Cullen the man pulling the strings with Leinster.

    But Burger believes that the similarities are still sufficient for the correlation to be made between provincial and international failure.

    “Yes, but it’s the same type of style though, with the way they play,” he suggests.

    “The Boks can really challenge them physically.”

    Ireland, of course, have an opportunity to debunk such theories when they take on the reigning world champions – minus the injured Gibson-Park – in next month’s two-Test series.

    The series begins in Pretoria – the scene of Leinster’s humbling at the hands of the Bulls – on July 6th, and concludes in Durban the following Saturday, July 13th.

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    De Villiers says that a successful summer tour would do wonders for Ireland psychologically.

    “It is concerning from their side, there’s some mental damage there, I would think,” he concedes.

    “I am sorry to say this but it is like our (South African) cricket team, the more you want to get away from it, the more it just sticks to you..

    “You shake it by being in that situation, performing when the big game arises, and getting over the line, and they haven’t been able to do that. Fast forward a couple of weeks, though, and they get another opportunity.”

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    Comments

    58 Comments
    B
    Blanco 396 days ago

    Another thing to consider with leinster is that they always try and pursue two titles.

    That said they tend to favour the champions cup. They got to the final against a great Toulouse team. Dupont played one of his great games (in defense and kicking this time). Toulouse produced a turnover masterpiece. And still it came down to a missed drop goal and arguably not perfect end of match nous by Leinster.


    In the URC the result that really hurt them was the loss to Ulster in Belfast. That meant that Leinster would finish behind the Bulls in the standings and have to travel to Pretoria. That was the one fixture where they were potentially vulnerable. It still took a great game by the bulls and a masterclass by the coach. Leinster and Ireland will learn a great deal from that loss.


    The one lesson I would like them to learn is to pre-analyse your weakensses as thoroughly as an opposition does and fix.

    B
    BP 396 days ago

    Ireland are 100% Chokers at the WC…..7 QF exits must pass as choking….

    They have been the best team over the last 2 years yes, but if you keep getting dumped out of the biggest tournament at a QF it must be a choking thing……Winning 6 nations all good and well, but you playing sub par teams - so not that big of a achievement.

    H
    HR 397 days ago

    France still are undisputed World Cup chokers. Being defined as a choker means almost winning but at the last hurdle continuing to snatch defeat from jaws of victory. France made the very first RWC grand final back at the inaugural tournament in 1987. They then made the final in 1999 and then 2011 yet no cigar. Ireland on their hand have never made it past the quarters. They have never made it far enough to be defined as chokers . They are just seemingly poor at knockout rugby

    B
    Blanco 396 days ago

    You can’t call France chokers. They have overcome odds on favoutite’s NZ in major knock out matches. Outside a RWC final no team has knocked NZ out and won the following match.


    I would also point out that the RWC draw has been a joke for decades benefiting only a couple of teams. France has not been one of those.

    L
    LW 397 days ago

    Yes. Used to be you could say the ABs at world cups were the worst, now it's no contest Ireland are the champs

    B
    Blanco 397 days ago

    Given the ratio between world ranking and world cup performance over the years including 1987 then NZ are the worst. Recall two of their 3 victories were at home and their away victory in 2015 saw them disgracefully be put in charge of the match scheduling.

    J
    JK 398 days ago

    Ireland no, Leinster maybe

    B
    Bull Shark 397 days ago

    Virtually the same team.

    J
    John 398 days ago

    They won the last two six nations titles including a grand slam in that. I’d probably look at it another way that if you had told me Ireland would have got to where they now are 10 years ago I wouldn’t have really thought it possible. It is a minority sport in an already small country so we really have rung every drop out of what we have. But expectations change when you do really well and people expect more and more regardless.

    J
    JD Kiwi 398 days ago

    That's exactly right. Ireland have overachieved in the last ten years.


    They simply don't have the same level of athlete and talent as other countries and should be congratulated for their smarts and consistency.


    In the end, they don't have as high a ceiling as other countries or big clubs and if both play to their potential in the big match the other team will win. Leinster have made the final the last three years. Two of them they've been outlasted by a huge LaRo pack - that's not choking it's what happens in rugby. Then this year they lost in extra time to a team with that's bought up a phenomenal roster of internationals throughout the 23, all because they don't have a top notch 10. That happens when you can't just go out and buy one.

    F
    Flankly 398 days ago

    Choking is not the same as being outplayed. Choking is about losing the plot in some unforced way. That’s not a description of either Ireland or Leinster.


    What’s more like it is that opponents have watched enough tape to figure out how to stop the Ireland attack, at least well enough to push for the win. The game plan is not working so well against top teams, and it does not help that the conductor of the show has packed up his playing boots.

    B
    Bull Shark 398 days ago

    Compare Ireland to a team like the All Blacks of any era. You could watch as much tape on NZ as you liked - you still lost 8/9 times out of 10. There certainly is something in the fact that Ireland underperform in knockout scenarios. And I can’t help think it’s because Andy Farrell has all but publicly admitted to the fact that they don’t pay attention to the other teams game. They just “play their own game”. Which strikes me a weird as it assumes that if you just pitch up your game plan will work against everyone. Which it clearly doesn’t on every occasion.


    This particular group of Irish players have been very good. But they’ve not got the silverware to be revered as much as they have been. 2 x 6N trophies out of 6 tournaments is not that amazing in the bigger scheme of things.

    B
    BK 398 days ago

    Both teams are more like victims of their own sucess - held to high standards because of what they’ve achieved. As newcomers to the top tier especially the national team they should expect heartbreak before they learn to manage themselves at that level. For instance both teams that reached the Finals were in now way committed to winning all their games before that …

    T
    TI 398 days ago

    Not a fan of Ireland, but they’re far away from being the worst chokers in World Rugby. They’ve won too many 6N Grand Slams in the last decade, and have beaten literally every team that matters in the last World Cup Cycle.

    While they are, and by a landslide, the biggest chokers at the RWC, that’s not the same thing as to say they’re the biggest chokers in World Rugby. The very idea is preposterous. They were the #1 ranked team for what a year and a half, and had what 17 game unbeaten streak? How’s that anywhere close to choking?

    The same in light blue is valid for Leinster. Too much silverware, and too many podium finishes in the last decade to be considered the biggest chokers.

    This seems to be a deliberately antagonizing headline.

    B
    Bull Shark 398 days ago

    They’ve won two 6N in 6 years. (Seasons 2019 -2024). The same number as Wales.


    They’ve dominated in terms of win ratios, and even topped world rankings - as you say. But as far as knockout tournaments go - they’ve not performed.


    That’s why they’re being debated as being chokers. Failing when the chips are down. The pressure is on.


    Until they win a World Cup - the tag will not go away. Unfortunate, but simply the facts.

    R
    RC 398 days ago

    Not a hint of trying to ryle people up with an article like this. And as others have pointed there are others that are in the same boat or more worthy of this accolade. Hoping the teams never actually read any of these articles.

    T
    Toaster 398 days ago

    Leinster only recently - last three years


    Ireland at world cups yes


    Taking in to account favourites tag and number 1 status etc

    B
    Bull Shark 397 days ago

    With 17/23 Irish internationals playing in recent Leinster games - what are we debating here?

    D
    DS 398 days ago

    Maybe or maybe not but they are certainly up for nomination with that award.

    Between 1987 and 2011 NZ were ridiculed for often being No 1 and not able to win W Cups. Nice to see others getting the treatment.

    B
    Barry 398 days ago

    That’s fair but their ridicule was deserved at the time. Their media pushed the narrative of peaking a year too early which staved off the chokers tag.


    They were essentially a professional team in a still amateur era when they won their first world cup at home. They even choked in the 2011 final yet still managed to get over the line with a little help from Craig Joubert.


    They were sensational in 2015 though and probably the best team in professional sport. Got there in the end.

    B
    Barry 398 days ago

    Currently or historically?


    Pretty sure that France have lost 3 world cup finals and crashed out of 2 home tournaments…


    A single world cup for England from 4 finals could also be considered a poor return considering the resources and finances of their union.

    G
    GrandDisse 398 days ago

    Aren’t you considered a “choker” when you are favorite and under-perform in a match ?

    Because in each world cup final they took part, France was more of a surprise guest.

    Anyway for club rugby, Clermont remains the grandmaster with 15 lost finals over 17 (CC & top14 combined).

    B
    Blanco 398 days ago

    Obviously there is a series coming up between SA and Ireland……


    Ireland won the six nations (again) went unbeaten for almost 20 games til last Autumn beating all the top world teams twice. Held our nerve to beat NZ in a home NZ series.

    The RWC draw meant that we had to play a title contender in the Quarter that was a 50:50 and the schedule meant that we had to play a top 5 team 7 days before that quarter against a team who were lining us up all tournament and all year. Maybe Ireland should have focussed more on NZ at the expense of the preparation for the Scottish match? Who knows but thats a coaching issue, I saw no mental frailty during that match. As it happenned NZ were clearly better and got through.


    France have also been eliminated in the quarters last two world cups (including their home match). They have been solidly beaten by Ireland two years in a row. Where are the jibes there?


    If Ireland have an issue at the end of games it is game management. Against Toulouse, they aimlessly played on with a scrum advantage and then missed the drop. Leinster’s scrum was completely dominant so a scrum was likely worth a penaltyto win the game off the tee. No penalty, then set of the drop goal attemp then. That was missing, that’s end game management. NZ were getting there with this in 2011 but the Semi Victory over SA in 2015 was a victory of game management. Ireland will address it (hopefully very soon).


    I like the way the Irish team are staying so quiet. These jibes from SA players and pundits no doubt fueling that quiet energy. Underdog status suits Ireland perfectly. Ireland may not win, but expect a major performance in Loftus.

    T
    TI 398 days ago

    Agreed. A choker is someone who regularly fails at the last hurdle and has psychological issues. Ireland have won 6N and Grand Slams recently, have been the nr. 1 team for over a year, and had 17 (if not more) match undefeated streak. That hardly qualifies as a choker.


    The pool seeding for 2023 RWC was abominable and the fact, that two top4 teams were guaranteed to be eliminated is nothing short of a scandal. Both high-profile QFs were extremely tight affairs where one penalty would have completely changed the outcome. The 2019 Ireland were soundly beaten in the QFs. The 2023 Ireland lost in an up and down close match. If that qualifies as choking, then only because of Ireland’s RWC history, not because of their 2023 showing.


    And yes, France could be seen as even bigger chokers. Three RWC finals, and no cigar, and a QF loss at home in front of their frenzied crowd. Considering the stupid charge down, Jalibert’s ridiculous shank of a touch finder, the French went out of their way to decapitate their chances in the game, and even though it was a one point game, the French could have won if they managed to avoid some of their absurd blunders. Now that’s much closer to a choke, than Ireland’s loss, I think.

    C
    Conan 398 days ago

    As a South African it pains me to say Leinster and Ireland have lossed a few big games to the last few years but before that have been consistently good, if we are talking about chokers you can't look past the Protea’s

    R
    Rob 398 days ago

    The season wasn’t trophyless, if you need to be told that then you’re either not paying attention or pushing a dumb narrative to unnecessarily put down one team that reached the final of the best club competition in the world and another that lost a one score game that many consider one of the best games of the tournament. Wheres the talk of France choking the last two six nations crunch games against Ireland or their own quarter final against South Africa? Everyone that doesn’t win everything is a choker…..

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