'Crusaders didn’t want a nuclear bomb, they wanted a ripple'

Newly appointed Crusaders boss Rob Penney can’t wait to pick up the thread back home in New Zealand. It was 2012 when he first packed his bags to embark on what became an 11-year adventure taking him to Ireland, Japan, Australia, and back to Japan again.

It was in Cape Town this past week when RugbyPass caught up with him to chew the fat regarding his overseas coaching experiences and the prospect of returning to daily life in a transformed Christchurch is something that fills him with great enthusiasm.

Penney was there in 2011 when the grand old city was destroyed by an earthquake. He and his family got lucky. “We got some damage around the house. Like, it was very frightening at the time, the rattles, the quakes were a bit of a revelation around how fragile things can be,” he recalled, going on to outline his excitement at now getting to work there again at the age of 59.

“It has taken time, but it is a beautiful city now and it is going to get better,” he said. “Once the new stadium is built in the next couple of years and the swimming complex that they have got there is intertwined with the fabric of the central city, it is going to be a beautiful city. It will be something that we can all be really proud of.

“The cathedral has been a centre pivot point for Christchurch for such a long time and that is being rebuilt thankfully, and there is a whole lot of new stuff that has kept the essence of the traditional arts centre/museum, that quarter down the end which is all very old Christchurch, they have rebuilt the river waterfront on central Christchurch which is a fantastic hub for any tourist and then we just need a couple of big marquee projects to be completed.”

A very different work in progress was the reason why Penney sat down with RugbyPass in a hotel lobby in South Africa. The pandemic lockdown and changes to the World Rugby eligibility rules created headaches for youths rugby in Japan that will only be solved over a far longer period of time than the duration of the Junior World Championship that the Kiwi coach is at the helm of the U20s for.

He has done this tournament before, taking charge of the Baby Blacks that reached the 2012 final at Newlands versus the Junior Springboks, but coming back as the Japanese boss in 2023 has been an entirely different situation, one that has so far resulted in pool defeats to France and Wales.

“We have got boys that are in their second year of varsity that have basically been locked down for three years so this is their first experience,” he explained about the calibre of the young players he is coaching. “We managed to get a wee tour to Samoa and we took the U20s there to play in an U23s Pacific Island challenge tournament, which was fantastic because it was their first opportunity to get outside the country and experience playing foreigners.

“The Japanese boys are still probably three years away from what would be a professional contract of any sort and we are up against Super Rugby players, guys in the Premiership, guys in the Top 14. It’s significantly different and the World Rugby regulation around changing your eligibility from three years to five years has significantly impacted.

“Normally the Japan U20s would have a half-dozen or so Pacific Island boys just to make up a level of physicality that have migrated to Japan, have had three, four years high school, started uni there, but we have got none of them available to us due to the fact that three to five years has impacted in their ability to join us.

“Not only has the covid lockdown been horrendously powerful for this particular group, they have hardly had any access to football for three years. The other aspect is the professionalism and development of these boys, they are one of a hundred at university training whereas you have got academies, you have got professional development happening in the Western cultures that really nurture the young boys’ development.

“There is an overarching cultural aspect to it too where young men in Japan aren’t encouraged to express themselves and aren’t encouraged to step forward as leaders until well into probably their fourth year at uni, so we are well down the pecking order in that regard. There was a lot of anxiety and trepidation heading into this tournament.”

Let’s wind the clock back, though, to when Penney first ventured overseas in coaching, joining Munster 11 years ago as the successor to Tony McGahan, who exited to become part of Robbie Deans’ Wallabies coaching staff. He had the option to extend his initial contract in 2014 but instead opted to give the club scene in Japan a whirl instead. “It was clear that it was time to go but I have got some fantastic memories and still keep in contact with a number of people there. I would have loved to have stayed but it was just too tough.”

In what way was it too tough? “Probably rather not say,” he said, biting his lip about a two-year stint where he had tried to expand the Munster forwards-dominated style of play into more of a 15-man approach. “Philosophically, I am still a massive believer in attack, finding space. That was my philosophy back then.

“Structurally we had something that was a wee bit radical for the Munster crowd. They were fantastic for the most part for giving it a crack and what was very obvious there was a thirst for something different. Pat Lam, who was at Connacht, won a championship playing it a few years later so it had its time – that was its time and it would have evolved. There were glimpses of it coming and I was pretty excited about it, but there were always anchors in the sand in the background and yeah, that was a shame.

“I learned a lot from that experience in Munster. I’m deeply indebted to the people there for working with me and showing me other ways. I still look back with a lot of regret at not being able to continue. If I had been able to continue, maybe my rugby coaching path would have been different because Munster is a magnificent organisation and it still warms my heart when I talk about it because I am passionate.

“Even though I was only there two years I have still got so strongly felt memories and feelings for the place. But you move on and you take the learnings from that, the good bits. Rugby is about people; you are not selling something outside of someone’s soul really.

“You are doing your best to try to encourage and nurture and grow those people around you and forced relationships are challenging. From then on in I would always go in with my eyes wide open. I’m an optimist by trait and I always thought there wouldn’t be a person on the planet that I couldn’t work with wholeheartedly and that they would be able to work with me.”

Penney went on to spend more than five years at the Shining Arcs, AKA Urayasu D-Rocks, and Shokki Shuttles, a stay that initially required quite an adjustment. “Massive culture shock. What a country, Japan. What makes Japan so special is what makes it so frustrating,” he quipped. “It’s a massive dichotomy that has worldliness but naivety, it is open yet shut, it embraces but doesn't want to be changed – it's just so challenging and the first two years you are just trying to get your head around all that.

“You can’t go there expecting to make a rapid and significant change. There are so many unusual restrictions and you bite your tongue a lot and you have got to be really patient because the conversations are all translated to and from and sometimes the translation might miss something or a critical moment.

“So you are spending a lot of time contemplating and sitting in silence, waiting for answers that never come, so it’s a very challenging environment to coach and I reckon coaches that go to Japan would be very wise to speak to someone that has experience there – but I wouldn't put anyone off from going there either. Socially I can get by, but I couldn’t hold an audience so as all the coaches do, you rely heavily on the quality of your translators.”

What appealed most about the very different Japanese way of life? “It’s safe, it’s structured and what makes Japan great also makes it frustrating. Everyone has got a job and they all take their job very seriously and that is a lovely thing because there is very little abject poverty or obvious poverty. It is a very socialist type of country so everyone is cared for to a degree, but it means that because the health system is available to everyone, it’s chocka.

“It’s quite interesting to see how that all works, but people are well cared for. There is a system there Kohai Senpai: if you are a bit older than someone else you get to be respected even though you may not be the person of authority. That has positive and negative connotations on how society is structured and how it works and operates. It keeps order and it makes it safe.

“You can be in the middle of Tokyo at any time and there are only a couple of places you probably wouldn't want to be going. The variety of restaurants and places you can go socially are fantastic, and the public transport is second to none and operates to a metronome, it’s just amazing.

“The lifestyle there is wonderful. Some people struggle with that. There is less freedom of expression, but most people get there and just embrace it. If you go in there with a really open mind that you are not there to change it, you are not to change them – they don’t want to be westernised and don’t try and do that – you will get to be flexible with the frustrations and embrace the positives. Great place.”

Rugby in Japan has undergone significant change. The 2015 miracle of Brighton win over the Springboks with Eddie Jones in charge ignited the swagger that helped Jamie Joseph take the team to the quarter-finals of the 2019 World Cup that Japan proudly hosted. Underneath that Test level success, the club game has also progressed despite some ongoing hurdles.

“There is a big trend to bring in more foreign players to make Japanese rugby more competitive and a top-tier nation. That has an impact on the young local talent but there are some things they can do to mitigate the effect of that and still have the top team, the flagship team representing Japan with maybe foreign-born players who have immigrated.

“Because it is such a different system the top teams operate in a really professional way and are well managed by their Japanese hierarchy, but then you dip down below maybe those top four or five teams and you are into a much more company driven, not so focused on the professional rugby element and that becomes more challenging for them to try to raise above that.

“There is a bit of a two-tier inside that top division simply because of that reason. Recruitment, retention is all dictated too heavily by the needs of the company as opposed to the needs of the team which seems ridiculous, but it is frustrating for those teams not quite at the top.

“Every year the level is better, the foreigners are more of an age where they are not retiring or they are coming to contribute long term. Like, Richie Mo’unga is up next year as a 28-year-old world-class 10. I see Liam Williams has come down from the north which is cool and there are a few more northern hemisphere boys coming down which has been great.

“So as far as the playing rosters go there has been a real growth and those players have added a lot of value to the environments. Most of them are coming to experience something different and they are offering a lot, they are not just going there and taking. It’s wonderful to see the impact they are having.

“And then you just look through the coaching calibre across the country, there are world-class coaches beavering away and offering great advice and support for the local players up there too. At every level, Japanese rugby is getting great input. It’s just whether their home-grown boys have the talent, physicality, and instinctiveness to really crack it at the top level.”

It was late 2019 when Penney signed up for a three-year switch to Australia, but the Super Rugby job he thought he was taking at the Waratahs turned out to be very different in reality and his contract was only at the halfway stage in March 2021 when he was unceremoniously dumped, going on to find himself heading to Japan. “Absolutely impossible,” he surmised about an Australian role that was soon impacted by the global lockdown.

“The biggest frustration there was I got contacted would I do the job with a young group by a Kiwi [Andrew Hore] and I said to them, ‘This a five-year project, you know that?’ They said yes, yes, we are going to be patient blah, blah, blah, and then the week before I was due to go the CEO upped and left and I guess there was a distinct lack of patience once I got into the job.

“Good people, though, the young men. There has been a transition of the boys that were there. Some have stayed, some have moved so they are gradually building a group that is gradually getting more and more competitive which is great, but it still going to take some time because after the 2019 World Cup, that side was decimated and what the Waratahs hadn’t done was future-proofed it with any succession planning. They brought in I think it was 14 U20s boys and basically decided that was the future and that was naïve.”

Penney’s next Super Rugby role should be very different. Unlike the Waratahs, the Crusaders are a powerhouse that last month clinched its seventh successive title and the brief that their new coach has been handed is very clear in contrast to the situation in Sydney. “Look, it’s one of the biggest honours I could be bestowed with; very excited to be going home,” he said with a smile.

“It’s my home province. I spent nine years there, three with Canterbury as an assistant and six as head, and I did one year with Robbie in 2005 with the Crusaders. To be going back at this stage of my career is a great thrill and I have got a specific job around the outcomes not only on the grass and with the players.

“Certainly, with the winning culture, that must be retained but also there is a deeper role there for me to hopefully bring on some younger coaches and to support them, so I am really looking forward to that and I have got some great people to work with. How it came about? It has probably been a conversation that has been going on for a few years. We have never really lost touch and Colin Mansbridge, who is the CEO, said they didn’t want a nuclear bomb, they wanted a ripple.

“They thought I guess with a bit of grey hair now that I could go in there without ruffling too many feathers and cause a ripple and keep some consistency and continue going from Razor [Scott Robertson]. I have got a great relationship with him and he will be doing All Blacks and Crusaders will be important to his success with the feeder approach and it just all fell together.”

How is Penny’s Robertson-like breakdancing celebration practice coming along? “That is not something I will be doing,” he laughed. “No. That is a great legacy of Razor’s and it won’t be emulated, no.”

What, though, is the secret of the repeated success enjoyed by the Crusaders? “Fundamentally it is just good people doing good work and egoless, driven by a team ethos that is far greater than any individual can have. There are egos there in and amongst because you have got to (have that) at the highest level.

“That is what drives some, but in amongst the workers if you like, the people that are in behind the scenes, that is really important, good buggers doing great work and helping each other to get better every day, never satisfied with where they are at. It’s not rocket science – and the relationship between the front office and the back office is very powerful.”

With his overseas coaching adventure now set to end in the next few weeks, how different is the Rob Penney who is returning to Canterbury after 11 years abroad? “He is still ambitious but probably has had a lot of the rough edges chipped off.

“As global experiences tend to do, you meet some great people and they will change you and your views on the world change as you have experiences from different areas. It has been a wonderful opportunity for me and my family to experience and meet great people and I will cherish those for the rest of the days.”

Two of Penney’s sons were young teenagers when the journey started in Ireland. “We had a 14, 16, and 19 (year old), so the 19 didn’t come, he was starting work when we left and the two young boys went to CBC (school in Cork), had a great time there and they have transitioned into the work environment now. Alex, the middle one who was the oldest of the ones in Ireland, is now a father and I’m a grandfather for the first time so that is a lovely transition.”

It was February 1996, at the dawn of rugby going professional, when Penney secured his first full-time job in the sport just before his 32nd birthday. He took on the role of CEO at Marlborough while nearing the end of his playing days and then switched to the NZR in 1999 as a national rugby development office, foundation roles that were ideal in enabling him to build the career that is still going strong all these many years later.

“I often refer to it as the best of times and the worst of times. Like it’s a roller coaster. My philosophy – and I have always said this – is you are living your life vicariously through the players, whoever you are coaching. That is where your buzz is, to see them growing infinitesimally, it’s only small margins sometimes.

“Some of them grow quickly and it’s magic and it is I guess creating an environment where you are able to share your knowledge and your wisdom in a really caring way and you are almost a father figure to some and that role is all-encompassing. You have got to be a massive giver.

“It can be very draining on your emotions because it is very about you and often the only feedback you will get is at the end of the season when you will either have a trophy or you won’t and only one team in the competition will have it and the rest of us as coaches we get reviewed and probably get slapped around sometimes and you have got to get back on the horse and learn your lessons and go again. That is just the evolution, I guess. Some people stick with it and are able to withstand the blowtorch and others don’t.”

Penney, for sure, has withstood that blowtorch. Next up, the Crusaders.